Let's Talk About Our Future Together

Jeff Denton

Apr 24, 2008 by Jeff

33 comments
News

It's probably not a secret - I love 37signals . Not only do they build great products, but they have a way of cutting through the clutter and bringing refreshing clarity to often complex issues. They never fail to inspire me and their recent blog post titled The Secret of Making Money Online was no exception. This is a video of a talk that David Heinemeier (of 37signals) gave at Statup School.

David tackled one of the more pressing dilemmas in modern software development...something like:

  1. Build great application

  2. ???

  3. Profit

What miracle happens at #2??? Good question. Some of David's more salient points:

  • Having a price helps create profit (it's almost too simple to work).

  • This notion has been lost in the web world.

  • There are many ways to have a price - not just one.

  • If people like your product, they pay you for it and if they continue to like it, they continue to pay.

  • This has been a successful business model for thousands of years.

  • Building the next Facebook and selling it for 3 billion dollars is an extremely remote possibility. The chance that you might build a decent niche product that a few thousand people like and will make you a decent living - much better odds.

So, David's talk got me to thinking about my original intent for CPO and it's future. My intent from the beginning was for CPO to become profitable somehow - the question was always the HOW. In my perfect world, CPO would always be a free product and earn revenue in other ways.

As you might have noticed, we have been trying some of these options out for the past month. Since early March, we've solicited paid contributions, paid ads and non-financial contributions like monitoring the forum, translating or writing documentation. So far this experiment has had limited...ok, NO success. Now, I'm not expecting miracles here but I genuinely believed that CPO had enough active and loyal users to spin this plan up a bit by now. I'm a little skeptical - looking around I find that others are in the same boat with contribution/ad supported business models. But it's ok - I've decided to give this plan a total of three months to prove itself one way or the other and then I'll move to Plan B.

So I'll level with you and try to be brief. CPO needs to begin earning its own living - pure and simple. I see 2 possible scenarios playing out over the next 6 months:

  1. CPO begins generating enough revenue to justify better support, a more robust hosting infrastructure, regular bug fixes and more features. This doesn't have to be a lot of money at this stage - just enough to entice a little help and to keep motivation up enough to get things to the next level.

  2. Or, CPO generates no revenue and things stay as they are indefinitely. I can always afford the hosting account but there will be limited support, few if any new features and bug fixes when I get around to it.

I'm not satisfied with scenario #2 mostly because I know it doesn't have to occur. I know that there are some problems with CPO - I know that support has been virtually non-existent for the past several months. I also know that I'm still passionate about turning CPO into a truly great product - but not for free. The key word here is sustainable - we don't need a $5,000,000 infusion of cash but we do need something that will generate revenue next month, and the month after that and on and so on and so forth. Otherwise, everything will stop.

So, how can we remedy this? I'm coming to you, the CPO user community, before making any firm decisions because I feel it's fair that you have a say in how this all goes down. I'll throw out the first pitch...here are some ideas I have for generating revenue:

  1. Created a tiered hosted account model. A free version with no support, no file uploads and limits on projects, clients and invoices. A paid ($5-$10 per month) premium account that would include responsive support, file uploads and unlimited number of clients, projects, etc.

  2. Offer the source code for download and installation on any server for $149. This would include 3 months of support and free upgrades forever.

  3. Offer a combination of 1 and 2.

  4. Charge only for the source code and keep the hosted accounts free.

That's about all I can think of at the moment but I'm open to suggestions. I just got done reading some blog posts over at ActiveCollab and it looks like the community really hit them hard for springing a pay only revenue model on a previously free product without any warning. I'm trying to avoid making their mistake so let's all be constructive and try to find a win-win. I trust my users.

One request though...let's stay away from comments like 'Yeah but Joomla/WordPress/Drupal/eGroupWare [insert favorite open source poster child here] give their stuff away for free and still make money.' unless you can provide explicit ways in which they bring in revenue. Otherwise it's just not very helpful. I know there are a number of quality open source initiatives that make money in ways other than selling software - but I think in the grand scheme of things, they tend to be the exception and not the rule. There are, however, numerous examples of shitty OSS that is completely free and worth every penny...I don't want CPO to fall into that camp if I can avoid it.

Thanks for reading and for your thoughts.

Jeff

Discussion: 33 comments

Chad

Chad

Apr 27, 2008
Hey Jeff,
Good to hear your honest chat. We're a 2 year old design firm gaining ground and now have been thrust into an agency type model. that said - more management/structure needed. And thus I've been on the hunt. I love Bacecamp - but I still find there's too much stuff, I like OS apps, but the glitches and slow support can get a bit tiresome. I've tried Kiwi and Copper - which are robust, but frankly too much stuff/multiple screens/ levels upon levels - I like simple.

Right now I use HARVEST for time tracking - great program!!
I use Box.net for storing and sharing files with clients and staff - another great app! but I wish these 2 simple, clean intuitive apps could come together along with a PM tool - now that would be the ultimate Killer PM Tool.

I have 2 major folks I need to keep informed and happy - Clients and staff. I have projects with budgets and deadlines.
For clients - I need a simple place for them to view comps/proofs and finals and comment along the way. Showing progress would be great.
For staff - I need a place to post projects/tasks/track time and collaborate through chat/blog/viewing proofs (comments)
Projects - a place to store info (briefs, proposals, etc) Somewhere to show progress using a pipeline (phase tracking) and calender
I need a place to view, comment, and store proof versions
And a place to store all assets for each project if possible.

I've signed up to test CPO, but I wanted to share my thoughts as well. As to your comments...I'd pay $150 if works and clients and staff don't complain about using another productivity tool. they having to log in to yet another app. We creative types don't like tools that slow us down and make us type type type and re-type data just so it makes a pretty gantt chart, ya know?

Cheers!!
Stephen Adams

Stephen Adams

Apr 30, 2008
Personally, I'd pay for this application, and I've only used it for an hour.

I love the UI. As long as there is fast support, constant upgrades, and your continuing personable personality, then it's all good.

Preferably, I'd like to host this locally or on a server of my own, so I'm not at the mercy of Creative Pro Office's server. Also, it's cool that I'd have access to the code, as I'm a developer, and can add functionality as needed.
Jive

Jive

May 5, 2008
Hey Jeff,

I've been a loyal user to CPO since the beginning, and we've exchanged emails a bit back and forth. I actually would like to have the app on my own server with constant development, and wouldn't be really against paying for it if it is developed and updated regularly.

I actually saw this coming. For a while you were on fire with updates, but then kind of teetered off. But I guess in the end, nothing really is for free. I think what these other open source "poster children" had that you didn't, was a solid developer base as opposed to a one man show - and they became bigger than the original founder.

Whatever you do, good luck. Please just warn us before you lock up accounts or yank the site down etc.
Garry

Garry

May 7, 2008
We're a small design firm just getting started. But we're a remote group so I need a hosted solution. I'd like to have time tracking for projects, issues or ticket service, and all integrated with a client database so I can automatically generate invoices. So far I can't find anyone with these features. Your design looks great. Good luck.
Csaba

Csaba

May 8, 2008
Dear Jeff,

I think your office system has a unique logic, because of its "client based" structure. Other business systems use separated Project Management and Customer Relationship Management respectively. The generic Project Management programs are project based, and the CRM systems are client based, usually without project management capability. CPO is a great idea for certain type of business. For example: I have an architectural firm. In my office I have client folders with some project and not vice versa. My friend has civil engineering firm. He has project folders. Both of us have similar profile but different office logic. I prefer the "CPO-logic" ;-) in my practice.
If I were you, I should point out the advantage of the client based business system in my communication all around the web.
And yes, I agree with you, there has to be paid version of CPO and also free version with restricted capability.
Janelle

Janelle

May 12, 2008
Hi Jeff,
I just want to say that I love CPO! I'm a writer who is just breaking into the freelance world and I've been looking at various tools to manage my time and projects. Csaba is right, most tools out there are either Project based or client based, with no connection in between. That's why your product is so refreshing. I love the fact that I can manage my time, projects, clients and finances in one place. My only suggestion is to add a Mac OSX dashboard widget. Right now, I'm considering using Harvest because of their widget (and a few other features). But if you had a widget, there would be no contest and I'd have no problem paying for the service. The advantage to having one tool instead of two or three is worth the price. Thanks for all your hard work!
Jeff

Jeff

May 12, 2008
Thanks for all the comments and good ideas, everyone. I appreciate the positive response and the fact that folks understand that CPO needs to earn a little money to continue growing and becoming better. I'll post a blog entry soon that will sum things up and let you know the direction I've decided to take.

@Jive, I want to address your concern directly. I want to assure you that, in no case would I lock user accounts or pull the site down - ever. That's what I would call a lose-lose in the extreme. I'm also looking at ways to pull more people into the development/support circle for CPO and I'm having some luck in that respect. I want to enter a for-pay business model with a team larger than just myself. Thanks for being a faithful user, Jive. I hope that helps answer some questions.
Pete

Pete

May 14, 2008
Thanks for the use of this free app....we love it and would have no problem at all paying for it. Personally we would opt for having this hosted on our own server.

Please keep on keeping it simple. Thanks again.
hb

hb

May 14, 2008
Hi Jeff,

I love CPO! I think that charging would be a good idea and inspire you to build out some features that your users are currently looking for. And since you have a child on the way, it would be a great way to pay for a crib, too :o).

Your ability to build a friendly and useful app is demonstrated! You are good at what you do! Come here and give me a kiss!

your wife
vincent

vincent

May 28, 2008
Hi Jeff,

I'm a new user of your great products as it is only my 2nd day here...

I must say I'm quite impressed by all the features you've got ! Of course I would be a little sad if you had to price it while I'm discovering it but that would be totally understandable.

One thing I wanted to highlight is that if you decide to price your products, you will then have a pretty strong pression coming from the user who usually want a lot as soon as they pay a little. Just a thought...

btw, exporting to exell would be a incredibly useful feature to add, why not price it...
David Burney

David Burney

May 28, 2008
I could easily see this competing on the lower end of something like Clients & Profits ASAP (which is absolutely horrible IMO). Last year the design studio I work at hit job number 999 in C&P ASAP and at that point, your only option is to pony up for the app. We were paying close to $30/mo. plus $5 for additional username/pass for our employees (five total). CPO is close to what we need, but just shy of being usable for us.

For myself and my freelance work it's great - and cheap. I'd pony up for an annual subscription for just what I'm using now (for a small fee). I rarely have more than a few jobs going at once it's perfect. However, if this moves to a subscription based model and is really out to compete in this market as a real mover I think there will need to be a bit more spit and polish. Not that I don't think it isn't capable - I'm very excited about CPO and the potential. Basically, as a freelancer it does just what I need - I can track a few clients, a few active jobs and some invoices/expenses. For it to be a viable solution for a small studio I'd need some minimal project management, automatic job numbers by client with client codes, someway to track/traffic production of jobs through my shop. That's all we're really missing here. And I've used Clients & Profits, C&P ASAP, and we've looked at Function Fox, Studiometry and have a developer that we work with customizing his own time management/billing app for us (which has turned into a complete nightmare). Here we are at the end of May and our studio is closing in on job #400 - last year our Clients & Profits jobs for '07 alone topped over 800. CPO would need to have a way to manage that volume of projects before our studio could pay a fee for it - but we'd be willing to part with up to $50/mo. if the feature set was right.

Keep up the good work Jeff, and let me know if I can help in any way.
Jewelie

Jewelie

Jul 3, 2008
I have just started using this and think that with a couple of adds, I would definately pay for it. I would like to be able to add the paypal html in the comments of the invoices. Also, I would love to be able to keep my regular invoice items so they could be reused. I know that the favorites is supposed to do that, but I have had no luck with that. Making Statements at the end of the month would be GREAT.

This is a wonderful program and is working to keep me organized. I have only used it a couple days.....but I believe it is worth it!
Nikki Lamagna

Nikki Lamagna

Jul 12, 2008
Jeff - I would have to agree with your wife. You've got a great online app and I think by charging for it, you'll a) make some money to continue this venture, b) make your product better and c) buy that crib!

Seriously, I hate having online apps hosted on anything other than my own server. I would definitely pay for the ability to download the app so I can put it on my own server. And I hate having to pay monthly fees (just another bill I have to remember to pay...) and am happier to pay up front, with the choice to purchase additional upgrades. Think ExpressionEngine here - I think they've got a pretty good set-up. Sure, it's pricey, but it does exactly what many web designers need and want. I think CPO is on the same journey.

And, in the end, you really are your product (or your product really is you). From what I can gather in your blog posts, you seem like a pretty good guy and you'll make the right decision for you, your family and your dreams/hopes for CPO.

Good luck from an adoring fan! And thank you - I know how much work you must have put into this and really appreciate it.

Peace - Nikki
Rob Enslin

Rob Enslin

Jul 12, 2008
Eve Jeff,

Well done for opening your thoughts with your customer. Understanding your customers is so important these days - understanding that your customers are NOT consumers, but rather people.

I've only just checked out CPO this evening and although I reported a minor bug I think CPO is a great tool. I've been looking around for something similar and only found the 37signals equivalent. I'll continue to use/play/test CPO and if I find it helpful, which I bet it will, then I'll recommend it to my company.

My company would then like to have the data secure and host it themselves thus paying for the code. So, I'd say option 4 is the way to go, personally anyway.

These days internet users expect tools for free. Once they can see the value then they get out their wallets and pay. It's often not how expensive or cheap it is but how useful and how it makes their life easier that matters.

Keep the hosted account free with minimal advertising (as you have it now) - non-intrusive and sell the code.

Good luck and take care,

Rob
Luke

Luke

Jul 14, 2008
I like 37signals.com in concept but ultimately having to subscribe to four or more different but very related tools is a pain in the butt, plus each tool is individually quite limited. This is from a former BaseCamp user. I'm using CreativePro Office right now because I am simply enjoying it so much. I would describe CreativePro Office as "Salesforce meets 37Signals." The simplicity and flow remind me of Creative Pro office, and the undeniable potential business utility reminds of Salesforce.

I would at the very least continue developing the application and selling it for a nominal license, if I were you. It seems like so much work has gone into it, I'm sure many people including myself will continue using it. If you make it available as an install package for download, people can set it up on their own servers. This way people can pass auditing and security standards and have backup information.

Outstanding piece of software.
UglyAmerican

UglyAmerican

Jul 29, 2008
Jeff-
Very interesting discussion. I have a rival application, I have been at it 5 years, and it has never occurred to me to have a totally free version, for the simple reason that the software is not free to develop, host, or support, so why should it be free (other than a trial?) I have a two tier pricing structure (1-5 users, $10/user, >5 users, $20/user) and I don't have any objection on price from real users.
That said, what I have found is that there are a lot of dilettante freelancers out there who are not serious about being a business, and thus not serious about their tools. They are not my market. Probably not yours either.
Open source really only makes sense for organizations who have the resources to enhance and support the app on their own system. The TCO is the same, it is just funded differently. But I would bet that the return for small orgs implementing open source is horrible - i.e. they would be way better off buying an app and selling their services than spending one extra second enhancing/supporting/maintaing an open source app.

Good luck.
Joel

Joel

Aug 10, 2008
The more I use your site the more I enjoy the simplicity of what is here and to echo some of the comments made by previous posts, I too would be willing to pay an annual subscription fee for the continued use of the product. Keep up the good work and don't be afraid to add a subscription service.
Steve

Steve

Aug 16, 2008
Hi Jeff,

First off, you've done a great job so far and appreciate your efforts very much.

I echo the comments of those willing to pay a fair price for use of CPO, perhaps based on amount of clients or invoice creation limits, so those who strain the limits of your servers and require you to upgrade/expand will support a greater share. I also encourage (and would be interested perhaps) in hosting my own CPO at a higher price.

A couple of suggestions on the topic in the meantime:
You can encourage donations now by creating a policy that, if you go to a paid platform, donations can be deducted from the cost of the first paid version if it comes to that. I think a lot more people would be into donating if they new they knew it would be a hedge against your going to a paid platform...

Perhaps you can do the same (offer some discount against future paid ver.) to encourage people to donate their time towards working on the help wiki, blog posts, forum help, db or widget programing or any other area you can use help. The involvement of others would hopefully free you from some of the admin work, make CPO public areas more vibrant and reassure those who may be scared off because of the long time periods between blog entries and forum posts/answers.

Anyway, thanks again for your work and excellent app!

Steve
Jeff Fletcher

Jeff Fletcher

Aug 21, 2008
I would pay for this in a heartbeat. No .. I need CPO. It's the only one I've found that has the features I need and is still pretty easy to use. I would definitely pay the $150 right now to host it on my own server. I really like that idea. I would also pay the $10 a month (which mind you is still cheaper than anyone else). But, my concern is that I haven't seen any update to the forums here. Are you still thinking of pursuing this project? Can I feel safe to continue to use it?

Anyway, thanks so much for the great service.
Vanessa

Vanessa

Aug 27, 2008
What's the status on your business model? :)
Rajshekhar Murthy

Rajshekhar Murthy

Aug 29, 2008
Dear Jeff - Until I looked at the blog, I was wondering why this great application is not well known or already bought by some other big company.. and was also thinking why is this free.. I just have spent a few minutes trying it out (and also reported what I felt was a bug).. I feel you should start charging for this great application.. I been using Google Apps, Zoho and many other SaaS tools, and honestly feel this is worth an integration..

As others, even I would pay $150 to host it on my own server.. and also not mind paying per user.. please go ahead with your plans.. we don't want this great application to go away anytime in near future.. We will make sure you get plenty of customers..

Good day..
Chad Ballantyne

Chad Ballantyne

Sep 2, 2008
Jeff - where'd ya go, my friend?
Cristiane

Cristiane

Sep 22, 2008
Hi Jeff!
Pleaase, can you tell us more about the CPO future?
:]
Pablo Toledo

Pablo Toledo

Oct 27, 2008
Hi Jeff,
Just came across your product. To echo some of the others thoughts:
- love it
- would like to pay the $150 to host it on my server.
- I am a curious what you've decided, as your three month trial seems over but I don't see an update. Hope you could give us a roadmap so we can all plan accordingly. But as of today, you have a loyal customer in waiting...
Pablo
David Vera

David Vera

Nov 11, 2008
Option 1 and 2....But first 3 months free would be great!
Michael

Michael

Nov 14, 2008
I'm about to try this tool. In general, I would much, much rather pay a monthly fee (ala 37sign.), assuming that the service will always be stable, my data (some client-info might be very sensible) is not exposed elsewhere and the product is being further developed, than relying on "some" free tool.
Make it a business. For now: thank's for providing us with such a cool tool. Good luck!
Karl Schmieder

Karl Schmieder

Nov 19, 2008
Hi Jeff
I liked your blog post and being a fan of 37 signals and getting paid to do things, I could appreciate where you are coming from.

I've used Basecamp as a solo user and as part of a big corporate content development team and it has its pluses and minuses. I think the 37 Signals model of try a scaled down version for free, pay for more features, memory, etc. works pretty well and I admire their work and philosophy.

That said, I could never get used to using their applications for my business. And I have tried.

On the other hand, your interface and features resonated with me from Day 1. Yes, there are other features I would add - a time estimator, for example. But right now, I am enjoying the simplicity of the product and the fact that I can not only track progress on projects but can also track time.

I also use Zoho CRM which has way too many features for a smaller business but the price there is free until you get up to the third user and it helps keep my business development efforts organized (better than a spreadsheet).

Perhaps you could add an additional business model to the mix - free up to the third user (the Zoho model).

Keep up the great work and best of luck.

-Karl
simon

simon

Nov 30, 2008
Hi, I am a web-dev project manager, with education in marketing. Here are my insights into how to earn on your product:
1. Keep free what used to be free. Keep security and performance updates free.
2. Charge for support, consulting, etc. (i.e. get a skype phone number where people get automatically charged for the time they speak with you).
3. Charge for new features, add ons, etc.
4. Charge for space and bandwidth used - incrementally - use the Amazon S3 concept.

There is one thing most software developers fail to notice. On the beginning their software is simple, and appeals to new users who need simplicity. Then the software grows in functionality, and still appeals to the users that have been with it from the beginning, but putts off users who are new to it. So never fail to keep the basic version of your soft free and simple - for those beginners who have no money and need something simple. Give an option to "turn on" more advanced features once a user has out-grown the basic version. Most likely at this stage they won't be so poor any more, and addicted to your solution enough that they will be wiling to pay for the extra features (add-ons, extensions, etc.).

Best of luck,

s.
Susanne

Susanne

Feb 23, 2009
I did not sign up with your site, even though it looks quite good. Why? Because it is free. For business purposes I tend to stay away from free web services. What will happen with my data if you go out of business? This is much more likely with a free service than with a website that brings the owner some money. So I'd rather pay my 10 USD or 20 USD per month and have peace of mind.
Hao Ngo

Hao Ngo

Aug 9, 2009
I've used product for 30 minutes so far and you have delivered a product with great value here. Excellent product. I would consider both monthly fee or perhaps your $150 fee to install on our own server...

Going to do some more testing on your product and I am waiting to see what you decide to do for future pricing model going forward...

great value.
hi....Are you still thinking of pursuing this project?
prince2 training

prince2 training

Sep 28, 2009
Open source is a good way forward if you can use the product for an internal company resource. A good open source CMS that allows you to knock out websites is a a good example. Develop it, use it to make sites, make it open source and get loads of lovely add ons for free.
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